Comments on: Mary and Martha Revisited

By: Yewtree

Yewtree — Sun, 27 Dec 2009 16:18:07 +0000

Interesting. For me (currently) the cataphatic emerges from the apophatic. Maybe it’s because I am very influenced by the Tao Te Ching.

By: Bob

Bob — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:03:58 +0000

It seems that the apophatic grows out of the kataphatic. I think the kataphatic experiences of God are almost always first and foremost and then a deepening with apophatic or silent wordless experiences with God. Merton seemed to have a kataphatic experice of God that lead him to the monastery and late in his short life he was exploring more apophatic prayer. When people gather, institution and structure will follow.

By: Dan

Dan — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:06:47 +0000

I don’t believe you have to leave religion or the institutional church (IC) to pursue a spiritual life. I’m sure that most people there are pursuing God in some form. I don’t agree that the two are inseparable. Fellowship with other believers is an essential. That this includes a large group gathering where only a few speak is, to me, optional. I don’t have a problem with the IC because of negative experiences or wounds inflicted there. That has happened, but I don’t believe that is my issue.
I talk weekly with a number of Christians one-on-one who are, and often have been for a long time, involved in wide variety of IC models. I do not find that their intimacy with God and relational maturity with Him has been greatly improved by the experience. To the contrary, there seems to be a widespread belief that if one attends IC on Sunday morning and participates in the programs and mission trips then their spiritual life will bear real fruit. Yet all these individuals know that their life overall is lacking real Life. This has led me to believe that not only is the IC not very effective, but it is counter-productive if the people involved substitute participation there with intimate, heart level connection with the Living God. A mentor has told me for years that the greatest risk for the follower of Christ is distraction.
I have recently began to experience the kataphatic path through repeated immersion into Brother Lawrence’s teachings. That has been so rich an experience I don’t think I can describe it adequately. He talked of working in the kitchen or “taking up a straw from the ground for the love of God.” Doing dishes has become worship as rich as the apophatic prayer. (I’m new to contemplative teaching, so I have to admit here that I had to do a little research on the words apophatic and kataphatic. The following article was very helpful: http://www.spiritualitytoday.org/spir2day/863815mcleod.html )
I do believe in “evangelizing” others to intimacy with God. And I heartily agree with your points regarding accepting them where they are and loving them there. Thanks for the reminder. In my IC it feels I’m swimming upstream, so I really wanted to know if the “evangelizing” is opposed by God if he wired them to be more kataphatic than I am naturally.
Carl, thanks for the response which is very helpful. I’ll spend some time digesting it.

By: Joe Rawls

Joe Rawls — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 19:47:56 +0000

Your writer seems to have bought into the “I’m spiritual but not religious” concept, which I think is bogus. All contemplative teachings of which I am aware have their origins in some kind of institutional religious matrix. I would go so far as to say that the two are really inseparable. Think of an orange, with religion the rind and spirituality the pulp and juice. Think also of Merton after he entered the hermitage full-time. He was still part of Gethsemani, from which he had to establish a certain physical and emotional distance for compelling and valid reasons. I sympathize with your writer; I myself have had enough negative experiences in the institutional church that I’m often tempted to bag it all. But it helps me greatly to model myself after Merton.